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Second brew: Brewing a severely "expired" kit (again)

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  • Second brew: Brewing a severely "expired" kit (again)

    So as per my other thread, I still have a "severely expired" kit available. I'll take more pics and everything during this run, and I'll post them all here!

    So far, I got the water ready. Bought the other day, and stored it in the freezer to keep it clean. Right now it's around freezing, but I took it out this morning so that it'll be slightly warmer at pitch when I get started this afternoon:



    Updates will follow tomorrow!

  • #2
    Did you get some fresh yeast?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by CraftyZA View Post
      Did you get some fresh yeast?
      Actually I wanted to run this like the previous one - do the brew exactly like the packet said, with the same ingredients. The previous batch ran 100's with the expired everything, and I wanted to mimick that in this brew. So no, I didn't purchase new yeast, but more on that in a bit. Process first:

      1. The kit:


      2. The expiry dates:




      3. Brewed it all up. Tasted just fine, smelled great. Here it is taking an ice bath:


      4. Mixed in the fermenter and properly sloshed to get good aeration:


      5. Wort temp:


      6. OG is at 1.038, which is a bit low, to be honest, but eh?


      7. Pitched the yeast (the expired yeast):


      8. Stuck in the cabinet in the kitchen, draped in a cool cloth:



      And there it stood overnight. Now, as mentioned above, with the previous batch this all worked like it should have. Textbook execution. Fermentation lasted to the hour as long as they said it would and all that, and I wanted to do that again. So I pitched the old yeast, and when I checked this morning - nothing. No airlock activity AT ALL. This concerns me, but since the wort was a bit cooler I'm going to give it until this afternoon, and if there's no activity then tomorrow I'll pitch new yeast. That means I'll need to go buy new yeast - but which would be good? This is a lager, but the yeast is a normal "brewers yeast", which is what I liked. I don't have the facility to brew this at 12°C~15°C for extended periods, all I can do is keep the fermenter at ~22°C. So, advice would be appreciated! Can I just buy a normal ale yeast and let it sit for like a month in the fermenter?

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      • #4
        Looks good. Give the yeast time to get going ... this could be anything up to 24+ hours.

        If 100% sure nothing is coming from said yeast, you could try Saflager W34/70 ... Its an Lager yeast that does well at Ale temps.

        Screenshot_7.jpg

        Read: http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/08/fer...iment-results/
        The Problem With The World Is That Everyone Is A Few Drinks Behind.!

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        • #5
          So just a pointer for future. Even with fresh kit yeast, the biggest improvement on kit beer is using style specific yeast from fermentis. In most, if not all kits, they have one generic yeast for all their kits. However, next to the grain bill, yeast is second biggest contributer to taste profile.
          I’ve used that pink one as well for a pilsner, and worked very well. Nice clean profile.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by JIGSAW View Post
            Looks good. Give the yeast time to get going ... this could be anything up to 24+ hours.

            If 100% sure nothing is coming from said yeast, you could try Saflager W34/70 ... Its an Lager yeast that does well at Ale temps.

            [ATTACH=CONFIG]1517[/ATTACH]

            Read: http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/08/fer...iment-results/
            Up to 24 hours is a long time, but I guess with the colder water I can't expect it to happen as fast as it did with the previous batch. I also guess that it's impossible to compare the two now since they've both been "expired" for so long. Eh. I'm certain I won't mess it up, I've learned beer isn't as sensitive as I always thought...

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CraftyZA View Post
              So just a pointer for future. Even with fresh kit yeast, the biggest improvement on kit beer is using style specific yeast from fermentis. In most, if not all kits, they have one generic yeast for all their kits. However, next to the grain bill, yeast is second biggest contributer to taste profile.
              I’ve used that pink one as well for a pilsner, and worked very well. Nice clean profile.
              Oh yes, I've heard this from a few sources as well. I'll definitely do it in the future. My main reason for not doing it this time was to not spend too much money on these old kits. I honestly want to see how "free" it can get. Your gift of the other day is seriously aiding that, I must add, so this will be my first truly free brew. I literally paid for the gas to heat up the wort for that ~20 minutes, and that's it. The rest is free, from the ingredients to the sanitizers and all that. It's a "lekker" feeling to me, and I'll definitely be buying some proper, fresh kits in the future with proper yeasts. I'm actually considering buying some liquid yeast and then to wash the yeast when I'm done to store it for future use (or to give away to other members here if they want to use/try it).

              On that same note, my next package of goodies is incoming, and me next brew after this will be a kit cider. BrewCraft's service is top-notch, wow, and their prices are brilliant as well. Can't get the stuff I order cheaper than from them, to be honest.

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              • #8
                The thing with expired kits is oxidation. If you look at your wort it is dark but the can say munich lager. The dark wort is oxidated and will have a metalic off taste.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Toxxyc View Post
                  Up to 24 hours is a long time
                  I've only done 6 brews so far - 4 kits, a partial mash and a full grain - and all took at least 24 hours before the bubbling started.

                  My 1st one was actually also an expired kit (Pale Ale) that someone gave to me because they never got to brew it. It came out perfectly and is what got the entire brew ball rolling.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Setsumi View Post
                    The thing with expired kits is oxidation. If you look at your wort it is dark but the can say munich lager. The dark wort is oxidated and will have a metalic off taste.
                    Completely correct, yes. The metallic taste gets a bit better with some aging, and the first kit's result is now starting to lose the metallic off-taste a bit. It's definitely not bad for free!

                    Originally posted by krugie View Post
                    I've only done 6 brews so far - 4 kits, a partial mash and a full grain - and all took at least 24 hours before the bubbling started.

                    My 1st one was actually also an expired kit (Pale Ale) that someone gave to me because they never got to brew it. It came out perfectly and is what got the entire brew ball rolling.
                    Yeah I gave this one around 48 hours, and when I opened up the fermenter on Saturday to take a look, there was NO activity. No bubbling, no krausen, no anything. It just smelled like plain extract wort as well. So the yeast is completely dead. I drove out to Brewmart and got myself a packet of Lalvin Saflager S-189 yeast. I picked it over the W34/70 strain since it requires only one packet per 23l batch and not two, and has the same temperature range (9°C-22°C, ideally 15°C-20°C), so my current 20°C fermentation temperature suits it well. It seems to produce a more neutral, plain beer, which is what I'm hoping for with this kit.

                    Anyway, I pitched the yeast Saturday afternoon and 3 hours later I had airlock activity. Right now there's a fat krausen ring in the fermenter and the smells and sounds are familiar - there's plenty of bubbling and plenty of fermenting happening!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Still purring along nicely. Krausen is a lot fatter than it was on the previous batch, and the beer is smelling much more beery. Keeping temps at around 18°C ~ 20°C.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Toxxyc View Post
                        Still purring along nicely. Krausen is a lot fatter than it was on the previous batch, and the beer is smelling much more beery. Keeping temps at around 18°C ~ 20°C.

                        On your next batch, start the beer at 17 degrees, then raise it to 18 after a week, and keep it there for another week. Test activity by taking sg 2 nights in a row. If stable, raise temp to 20 for 2 days, then crash it down to 1 degree for 3 days.
                        At that point you can rack it to bottling bucket.

                        There are a few brews where this would not be ideal, but for most plain ales like blondes, pale ales, bitters, etc this will result in a nice clean profile. With things like saisons you want a bit of those esters and phenols that result from slightly warmer fermentation.

                        Keep it up. Sounds like you are having plenty fun [emoji869]

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Dude, "plenty fun" doesn't describe how much I'm loving this. The only problem is this PTA summer heat... I don't have a fermentation chamber yet, so the only way I have to keep the fermenter at a slightly lower temperature is to keep packing it with ice packs in the kitchen cupboard It seems to be working though, the fermenter hasn't crossed 20°C yet and seems to be dropping slightly overnight and with the current rains. My guess is that it's a bit lower than 20°C now, probably around 19°C. My next big expense I guess will be a temperature controller for the chest freezer. Then I'll be able to more accurately control what's happening and how. They're not that expensive and then I can re-purpose the chest freezer into something REALLY useful.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Toxxyc View Post

                            I drove out to Brewmart and got myself a packet of Lalvin Saflager S-189 yeast. I picked it over the W34/70 strain since it requires only one packet per 23l batch and not two.
                            To my knowledge the pitching rate for S 189 and W 34/70 is the same ?
                            2017 SANHC-Finals-German Pilsner.2019 Academy of Taste-1st Lager +1st Overall-German Leichtbier.2019 Free State Fermenters-1st Place-Australian Sparkling Ale.2019 SANHC-Final Round-German Leichtbier.2020 SANHC-Top 5-EishBock.2021 SANHC-Low Alcohol Cat: 2nd-2%Lager, Over All Cat: 2nd-Schwarzbier.2022 Free State Fermenters-1st-American light Lager.2022 Fools and Fans National Competition-Top 5-Dunkles Bock

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Harhm View Post
                              To my knowledge the pitching rate for S 189 and W 34/70 is the same ?
                              Not according to the packet instructions. You can see them here: W34/70 and http://brewmart.co.za/shop/index.php...product_id=388. W34/70 recommend pitching one packet in 10 to 15 litres. S-189 recommend pitching one packet in 20 to 30 litres.

                              PS: I'm not 100% sure how accurate those packages are, to be honest, since I've found inconsistencies in the packets' different translations as well. Only after pitching did I take a closer look at the S-189 packet and saw that the English translation and the other one on the reverse side quotes different "ideal" temperatures to be fermented at. This is visible here:

                              This one, in French, quotes the ideal temperature at "12-15°C":
                              https://www.northernbrewer.com/media...-189-yeast.jpg

                              This one, in English, quotes the same at "15-20°C", which is what I saw and partly based my decision on:
                              https://www.geterbrewed.com/images/d.../2/GEB1356.jpg

                              So my question is - which one is it now?

                              EDIT: Sorry, the URL tag on the second link refuses to play along.
                              Toxxyc
                              Senior Member
                              Last edited by Toxxyc; 7 February 2018, 09:16. Reason: Damn tags aren't working

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