Second brew: Brewing a severely "expired" kit (again)

[Harhm Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Harhm]

Thanks for the info, that's interesting that the packets differ ito pitching. They still have equal recommended pitching rates for the 2 different strains on their website. I need to go and verify the new packets I bought last week Maybe old vs. new stock?

The temp info is also confusing. Then again I don't sweat the temps too much because I always ferment at the lower side.

That said I have a split batch of my House Blonde fermenting with S0-5 and S-23 side by side at 20C

Keep at it, we often forget that brewing is supposed to be fun

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Y'know I've been reading a few tests and stuff online recently regarding these types of yeasts, and I must say I'm more and more of the opinion that it doesn't really matter as much as some will want you to believe. On Brulosophy I saw a report of a ran a test to let W34/70 ferment at maximum temperature, and apparently the test concluded that "it doesn't make a difference". I also read another test where he tested the difference between W34/70 and S-189. Again, the test was inconclusive.

I'm 100% sure that the correct style yeast plays a role in fermenting your brew, like using an ale yeast for ales and a lager yeast for lagers, but when it comes down to the nitty gritties - do we as casual home brewers even have the required accuracy to compete with the types of tests he ran (inconclusively) across several brews with a multitude of different variables in the mix? I mean I'm fermenting my current kit lager at ~20°C. That's hot. Next time will probably in autumn or even winter - meaning the temps will be in the perfect range. Doesn't mean the beer will be significantly different based purely on temperatures though, IMO.

[CraftyZA Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close CraftyZA]

With that theory, you can just as well ferment at 34 degrees. You can finish your entire ferment in 3 or 4 days. The yeasties will be moer happy. Beer will have lots of “character”, and you can label it hangover in a bottle.

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

With that theory, you can just as well ferment at 34 degrees. You can finish your entire ferment in 3 or 4 days. The yeasties will be moer happy. Beer will have lots of “character”, and you can label it hangover in a bottle.

Good argument. Void mine :P

Small update - last night I looked at the fermenter like I always do, and noticed bubbling slowly slowing down. Decided to do something else and went for it - sterilized my brewing spoon, opened up the fermenter and just swirled the yeast from the bottom back up into the mix, being careful not to create bubbles in the beer. A few hours later and bubbling is back up to normal, active bubbling. Same thing this morning. On a better note, the past two days' "lower" temperatures assisted in my getting my wort to around 18°C down from the ~20°C it was sitting at. I'm glad!

On the downside, I tasted the beer on the spoon when I was done mixing, and it has that same metallic bite. I'll be doing one more kit brew after this (from a can, freshest I can find this time) to see if it's constant through all extract cans or just because these were expired. I'm not happy with the bite at all, since it's more prominent in this beer. Beer is lighter in flavour and colour (significantly so), and I suspect that's why that bite is more prominent. Guess I'll be leaving it in the fermenter for a bit longer than usual... :/

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Still bubbling constantly - albeit a lot slower now. Today marks Day 9 of fermentation - with an active airlock. That's good, from all indications I found. The longer it takes, the better (well, to an extent, but this is good, I hope). Brew smell is turning away from the stronger fermentation smell and going back to the familiar sweet, beery scent I had with the previous brew - love it!

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Right, so bubbling is slowing down drastically now, it's easy to see the fermentation is nearing an end. To date it's taken...13 days to ferment, and I'm guessing it'll be done by tomorrow afternoon. A nice, slow ferment. Going to leave it in the fermenter for a while longer (like before) as well, just for shits and giggles.

On the brew, I opened up the fermenter this morning and gave it a stir with the big-ass spoon again to get some yeast back up from the bottom. Much less activity by doing that than before - but hopefully this will move through the residual sugars and all that and force the yeast to start eating some by-products. I also then took the spoon and tasted it. To my, uhm, surprise, I guess, this brew is quite bitter. A lot more than I expected from this "German Lager". Not sure if it should be like this or if it's because of the age, but I'm really hoping it dies down a little when it's cold and carbonated, or this is going to be some slow drinking...

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

And to update, fermentation is done. I haven't measured SG yet at this stage (will probably do it tonight), but I squeezed the fermenter to get the airlock's water level "level", and it's been "level" and unchanging for 2 days. No CO2 coming off, so I'm guessing it's done. Will leave it for a week or two like this, then I'll cold crash and add the finings and everything to get it clear, before I'll bottle. Probably be tasting the uncarbonated beer tonight - here's to hoping it's good!

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Added finings and moved the fermenter to the deep freezer this weekend. There it'll sit for a week or so while I get my bearings straight so I can bottle hopefully in a week or so. Will take FG later - couldn't find the hydrometer in the rush of the weekend, think the cleaning lady might have moved it somewhere.

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

This is currently in the freezer, hovering just above freezing. I moved it there two days after adding the finings, but the beer is not clearing like I guess it's supposed to. It's still quite cloudy, but I'm hoping it'll clear before I bottle (at least a little bit more). Anyway, this morning I took a little taste test (just dipped a finger), and, well, it's not lekker. Beer is VERY bitter, and slightly sour. I'm 100% sure it's not contaminants from my side, but perhaps it's because of the expired kit? Today marks 3 weeks since making it - last batch I could start drinking at this stage. Is it possible that the extract stood for so long that it created excessive bitterness from the hops? It's a pre-hopped extract with the matching DME?

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

OK so another 24 hours later and it's starting to clear now. I swirled around the beer in the fermenter a little bit (without splashing), and it seems the movement put the clearing into motion, if that's possible? The cloudy haze the beer had in when shining a torch into the side of the fermenter seems to be clearing FAST now, and it's starting to get a dark golden colour. Much lighter than my old beer, but not as light as it should have been (thanks, age).

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Right, question time. I bottled this brew this weekend. Before bottling I took a hydrometer reading to make sure it's done with the fermentation, took that reading sample and poured it out into a glass and put that glass in the fridge to cool down. Proceeded to bottling and when I was done, tasted that sample. Now, I've tasted some beers in my life. Not a lot, but a few. This, just, eish. I suspect the words "epic fail" is best to describe it. It tastes like liquid tin, with an overdose of bittering ingredients. The expired extract "twang" like it's called is so strong, it "bites" my tongue. In short, it's terrible. I took the first sip and thought "maybe it's just the first", so I tasted it again - nope, same. I tossed the rest, couldn't drink it at all.

Now my question - do I uncap all these bottles and toss the beer or do I wait it out? Will it get a bit better with age like the previous batch did? The previous batch had traces of this extract crap but nowhere near this level, and it aged out nicely. Then, is there anything else one might be able to do with beer that tastes as crap as this or it destined for the drain?

I'm not too disappointed in this batch, to be honest. It was free and expired, so it's not too bad. What I am really peeved off with is that I didn't taste it before bottling. If I tasted this beforehand I wouldn't have gone and wasted sanitiser, carb drops, caps, several hours of my weekend, etc. etc.

[Harhm Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Harhm]

Given the ingredients that you brewed with its very unlikely that it will improve to a drinkable level. That said, time is a brewers best friend. Keep it, you did the work and learned the lessons.

Start over and use the freshest ingredients you can find. By the time your fresh batch is ready to bottle you will know what to do with the old batch.



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[JIGSAW Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close JIGSAW]

^ Eish, sorry to hear.
I've never really been a fan of these bre-hopped kits, as I've always picked up on that "liquid tin" taste and secondly the lager kits have always been my least favourite from them all. Im not sure if the stock goes thru a very warm transportation timeframe as it's imported to SA, but those tins didn't do it for me. I've never tried the MJ pouches as sold by Brewcraft, so not sure if they're better. The fact that yours were expired could make that taste even worse, but don't toss it ... it in the bottles now so why not let them sit and try one every weekend like before?

This tin taste is why I've moved onto partial extract and partial mash within my 2nd year of brewing and from there on it only got better.
...but this was only your 2nd brew, so do try some more "non-expired" kits, especially those pouches, before giving up completely on this new hobby

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Given the ingredients that you brewed with its very unlikely that it will improve to a drinkable level. That said, time is a brewers best friend. Keep it, you did the work and learned the lessons.

Start over and use the freshest ingredients you can find. By the time your fresh batch is ready to bottle you will know what to do with the old batch.

Yeah guess there's nothing to lose to just wait it out. It's not in the way now, so maybe after a few months it'll taste better. Who knows. It's carbonating now, so let's see...

^ Eish, sorry to hear.
I've never really been a fan of these bre-hopped kits, as I've always picked up on that "liquid tin" taste and secondly the lager kits have always been my least favourite from them all. Im not sure if the stock goes thru a very warm transportation timeframe as it's imported to SA, but those tins didn't do it for me. I've never tried the MJ pouches as sold by Brewcraft, so not sure if they're better. The fact that yours were expired could make that taste even worse, but don't toss it ... it in the bottles now so why not let them sit and try one every weekend like before?

This tin taste is why I've moved onto partial extract and partial mash within my 2nd year of brewing and from there on it only got better.
...but this was only your 2nd brew, so do try some more "non-expired" kits, especially those pouches, before giving up completely on this new hobby

Oh I'm definitely not giving up, I'm just getting started. Like I mentioned, I'm not disappointed that this one failed (at all), simply that I didn't taste it before bottling (like I did with the first batch).

On the tins vs pouches - apparently the pouches are better, but in the tests I've seen most non-professional or experienced tasters could not see much of a difference. The tins are quite fine, I've seen some guys produce really good beers with them (even with the hopped tins), but the main point they're making is that they tins should be fresh, not 4 years old. So yeah, next batch will be a fresh tin with some DME, brewed on purchase day.

This brew will sit and wait. Maybe, just maybe, it'll be drinkable after a month or two, we'll see (although I highly doubt it). It was made in a lot more controlled manner than the last one (better temps, longer fermentation and all that), so I don't have much hope. Eh.

My next brew is probably going to be a cider (Mangrove Jack's pouch, incidentally), running side-by-side with 2 small batches of mead I'm making for a friend. Got the honey lined up already, just need to get the time now.

PS: Anyone want to taste the toxin I have produced?

[CraftyZA Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close CraftyZA]

^ Eish, sorry to hear.
I've never really been a fan of these bre-hopped kits, as I've always picked up on that "liquid tin" taste and secondly the lager kits have always been my least favourite from them all. Im not sure if the stock goes thru a very warm transportation timeframe as it's imported to SA, but those tins didn't do it for me. I've never tried the MJ pouches as sold by Brewcraft, so not sure if they're better. The fact that yours were expired could make that taste even worse, but don't toss it ... it in the bottles now so why not let them sit and try one every weekend like before?

This tin taste is why I've moved onto partial extract and partial mash within my 2nd year of brewing and from there on it only got better.
...but this was only your 2nd brew, so do try some more "non-expired" kits, especially those pouches, before giving up completely on this new hobby

I can vouch for those pouches! I’ve had pouches turn out better than some of my all grains...