Vienna...ale?

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Are you wanting to add in gelatine and then bottle straight away, or leave to settle for a couple of days first?

Gelatin and then bottle straight. Let the sediment settle down in the bottle. See what that looks like.

[Langchop Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Langchop]

Gelatin and then bottle straight. Let the sediment settle down in the bottle. See what that looks like.

I know you like the sediment sludge in the bottle as a chaser (!), but it might help to get more clear beer if you give it some settling time so that you can separate out those solids and actually keep them out of the bottles.

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

I know you like the sediment sludge in the bottle as a chaser (!), but it might help to get more clear beer if you give it some settling time so that you can separate out those solids and actually keep them out of the bottles.

Yeah I usually do that. Let it get pretty clear in the fermenter before bottling. I usually end up with very little sediment in the bottles then. This Vienna I'm making now is starting to go really clear in the fermenter, so I'm hoping for very little sediment in the end.

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Alright, so 4 weeks after brew day I figured this has spent enough time in the fermenter. Fermentation stopped visually in 3 days and the krauzen dropped clear a few days after that. I cleared with gelatin and it's been sitting on that gelatin for a while now, about 2 weeks. I mentioned the beer got clear in the fermenter but I didn't realize just how clear. It's almost as clear as some of my previous brews after spending 3 weeks in the fridge:



That's pretty damn clear for a beer on bottling day!

Anyway, that's where the good news stopped. I took a gravity sample and found the brew dead at 1.018. From my OG of 1.032, that gives me an ABV of 1.84%. With the carbonation sugar per bottle, I'll probably get to 1.9%. That's way under where I wanted to be, and confirms my initial worry - my mash temps were completely wrong. Completely. I don't know if I mashed too high or too low, because I'm just not sure anymore at all now. I took the sample twice, and made sure the hydrometer reads correctly, so I'm 100% sure about the reading. Beer temp was at 20ºC as well, so on the money on the hydrometer's calibration temp. It's a damn bummer, but that's what I have.

Anyway, in the end I got 1 x 5l mini keg and 12 x 450ml bottles of this beer. I also took a sip of the hydrometer sample, and, well, it wasn't really cold or carbonated, but man this isn't a bad beer. At all. I could really have done worse!

Finally, I sloshed the yeast around in the fermenter and poured it into a 750ml glass jar. Sat it in the fridge for a day and it dropped out most of the yeast. Drew off the beer on top, and tasted it cold. This is a nice beer. Would have loved more ABV, but it's not bad at all. Going to save around 350ml of the slurry for the next batch of this. Got it marked, and I'm wondering - do I feed the yeast with yeast nutrient in the jar, or do I store it like it is, or do I freeze the jar? What's the best way to store the yeast?

[groenspookasem Banned Find all posts View Profile Close groenspookasem]

Alright, so 4 weeks after brew day I figured this has spent enough time in the fermenter. Fermentation stopped visually in 3 days and the krauzen dropped clear a few days after that. I cleared with gelatin and it's been sitting on that gelatin for a while now, about 2 weeks. I mentioned the beer got clear in the fermenter but I didn't realize just how clear. It's almost as clear as some of my previous brews after spending 3 weeks in the fridge:



That's pretty damn clear for a beer on bottling day!

Anyway, that's where the good news stopped. I took a gravity sample and found the brew dead at 1.018. From my OG of 1.032, that gives me an ABV of 1.84%. With the carbonation sugar per bottle, I'll probably get to 1.9%. That's way under where I wanted to be, and confirms my initial worry - my mash temps were completely wrong. Completely. I don't know if I mashed too high or too low, because I'm just not sure anymore at all now. I took the sample twice, and made sure the hydrometer reads correctly, so I'm 100% sure about the reading. Beer temp was at 20ºC as well, so on the money on the hydrometer's calibration temp. It's a damn bummer, but that's what I have.

Anyway, in the end I got 1 x 5l mini keg and 12 x 450ml bottles of this beer. I also took a sip of the hydrometer sample, and, well, it wasn't really cold or carbonated, but man this isn't a bad beer. At all. I could really have done worse!

Finally, I sloshed the yeast around in the fermenter and poured it into a 750ml glass jar. Sat it in the fridge for a day and it dropped out most of the yeast. Drew off the beer on top, and tasted it cold. This is a nice beer. Would have loved more ABV, but it's not bad at all. Going to save around 350ml of the slurry for the next batch of this. Got it marked, and I'm wondering - do I feed the yeast with yeast nutrient in the jar, or do I store it like it is, or do I freeze the jar? What's the best way to store the yeast?

my 2c
24h fining is enough
i personally wont reuse yeast once finings has hit it. unpredictable results. finings pretty much drops everything out of suspension, so once you add it, fermentation will slow or stop
you can nudge abv with some dme whilst in primary. there's calcs out there to help you
i've heard of guys nudging abv after fermentation with vodka, not something i'd ever do. but could be an option if you're deadset on upping the final abv.

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

my 2c
24h fining is enough
i personally wont reuse yeast once finings has hit it. unpredictable results. finings pretty much drops everything out of suspension, so once you add it, fermentation will slow or stop
you can nudge abv with some dme whilst in primary. there's calcs out there to help you
i've heard of guys nudging abv after fermentation with vodka, not something i'd ever do. but could be an option if you're deadset on upping the final abv.

Yeah I've decided to just leave it. I knew the ABV would be low, but my estimates were around 2.5%, so 1.9% isn't THAT bad. I didn't think about the yeast and the finings before I added the gelatine, but I guess we'll have to see. It does drop pretty clear pretty fast in the jar, so maybe I'll just toss it anyway. I swirled and sloshed the yeast in the fermenter, poured into a jar and 12 hours later the top layer was pretty damn clear. So maybe it just won't work, or I'll risk off flavours as the yeast will just sink to the bottom and just ferment "down there" without working through the whole fermenter's content. I dunno. Maybe not a bad test to do?

[Langchop Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Langchop]

Hey ya know what, if you have made a beer that you like and are happy with the body and mouthfeel, then you have made a great, light session beer!

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Problem is at 1.9% ABV it'll only take one session to kill them all, and another for the keg to die...

[Harhm Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Harhm]

Congrats that's a great looking beer, if it taste great and has good mouthfeel and head retention you have succeeded in my book.
You have succeeded in brewing something that most homebrewers would not even attempt in the 1st place because it is very difficult to brew a 2% beer that actually taste good and drinks like much bigger beer.

Please allow me one or 2 comments, you mashed low 66-64 and would not have a negative effect on FG/attenuation but will actually improve alcohol production due to a more fermentable wort.

I don't think the gelatin had a negative effect on lowering the abv even though you let the beer sit in the fermenter for longer than needed after adding the gelatin, remember the beer was at FG 2 weeks before you added the gelatin for 2 more weeks not so?.

Keep in mind that we regularly add gelatin and cold crash and then have very clear un-carbonated beer that still have enough yeast in suspension to carbonate it by adding sugar. If you don't have any yeast left in suspension from the long time between adding gelatin and bottling this beer would not carbonate in the next 3-4 weeks.

Regarding the FG: It might have been that you did not spin the hydrometer when the FG was taken as the CO2 in the beer from fermentation would influence your FG as the CO2 will lift the hydrometer higher out of the solution and give a false FG reading OR you had poor yeast health and/or poor fermentation resulting in only 43% attenuation (lager yeast does not perform as they should at higher temps no matter what the sales mumbo jumbo says )

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Congrats that's a great looking beer, if it taste great and has good mouthfeel and head retention you have succeeded in my book.
You have succeeded in brewing something that most homebrewers would not even attempt in the 1st place because it is very difficult to brew a 2% beer that actually taste good and drinks like much bigger beer.

Please allow me one or 2 comments, you mashed low 66-64 and would not have a negative effect on FG/attenuation but will actually improve alcohol production due to a more fermentable wort.

I don't think the gelatin had a negative effect on lowering the abv even though you let the beer sit in the fermenter for longer than needed after adding the gelatin, remember the beer was at FG 2 weeks before you added the gelatin for 2 more weeks not so?.

Keep in mind that we regularly add gelatin and cold crash and then have very clear un-carbonated beer that still have enough yeast in suspension to carbonate it by adding sugar. If you don't have any yeast left in suspension from the long time between adding gelatin and bottling this beer would not carbonate in the next 3-4 weeks.

Regarding the FG: It might have been that you did not spin the hydrometer when the FG was taken as the CO2 in the beer from fermentation would influence your FG as the CO2 will lift the hydrometer higher out of the solution and give a false FG reading OR you had poor yeast health and/or poor fermentation resulting in only 43% attenuation (lager yeast does not perform as they should at higher temps no matter what the sales mumbo jumbo says )

Thanks for the comments man, I appreciate it! If this beer tastes good, I'll be happy, and that's it.

Regarding the mash temp - I don't think the mash temp was anywhere near accurate. I think it might be much higher than I measured. I measured using an IR thermometer, but I have this feeling that the thermometer measured the steam temp, which is cooler than surface temp, so I think the water might have been much higher than what I was supposed to use, resulting in me killing the enzymes and getting a very low sugar count and pretty unfermentable wort. Colour is spot on, so that's not a worry.

I'm not worried that the gelatin had an effect on the ABV. You are correct, the beer sat for almost 2 weeks before adding the gelatin, and by the time I had it go through the fermentation and the diacetyl rest and everything. I'm 100% sure it's not the gelatin that's the problem here.

Based on the above, I'm also still very sure there will be enough yeast still in the bottle to carbonate the beer. I bottled one in a clear glass bottle (as in the picture), as I always do, as it allows me to see what's happening in the bottle at all times. It's reassuring, because I can see when what is happening. I'll keep an eye on it for the next day or five and report back.

Regarding the FG - I did spin the hydrometer, but it made no difference. The sample I took was 4 weeks old, and 3.5 weeks after fermentation stopped. It was DEAD flat. Even on the taste there was no CO2 bite in the beer, meaning the CO2 could not have had an effect on the reading. I fermented exactly in the yeast's recommended range, which is 11°C to 15°C. I fermented at 14°C (measured with IR thermometer and stick-on thermometer).

As a summary on the above, my problem most definitely is temperature. I had a very nice thermometer a while back, which I used for everything, but in a sporadic spate of idiocy, I dunked the probe into boiling water completely, trying to keep an eye on the temperatures in a boiling kettle. Completely killed the probe, and there aren't any more stock coming in, so I'm stuck with what I have (bad excuse, I know). That was during my previous batch (the low ABV one), and while I killed the thermometer, it was reading spot-on, because my efficiency and everything else was spot on for the brew, so there's that.

Anyway, in short, going forward, I need a good thermometer, preferably something digital. Anyone got recommendations? As cheap as possible would be nice...

[Langchop Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Langchop]

Problem is at 1.9% ABV it'll only take one session to kill them all, and another for the keg to die...

I think your missing the point of a session beer

And throw your IR thermometer away. It probably was the issue. Not so good for anything shiney, reflective, translucent, transparent etc. Probably get more accuracy leaving a piece of black ceramic in the the wort, then pulling it out and scanning the temp on that.

I still think it's a beer well made

[Harhm Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Harhm]

I obviously have a special interest in these very low abv beers I currently have version 10 of my Lite and Extra Lite lagers in the fermenter.

As a mater of interest I had a look at my brew logs on the Lite lagers and the highest that I mashed was 70c and still had 72% attenuation on a 4% abv Lager, and 68 on 2.5% Extra Lite Lagers with 70% attenuation the lowest that is why I think you should have a good look at all the causes of low attenuation.

With 44% attenuation it will not only be the mash temp that's the culprit here, it will be a combination of a few factors. It is important to note that just fermenting within the suggested temp range of a specific yeast is not a guarantee to get good yeast performance, lager yeast are not always as "forgiving" as ale yeast.

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Well my entire brew day was rife with issues, as described earlier. You're welcome to play along with my issues and replicate them, to make your own 1.9% ABV beer? I'm joking, but seriously it is worrying, yes. Something's amiss in the brew, and I sincerely hope those bottles don't go kaboom on me in the near future when the yeast decides that the temps are "lekker". I'm HOPEFULLY getting a fridge this weekend so I can ferment properly, and also store some brews cold, so there's that.

[groenspookasem Banned Find all posts View Profile Close groenspookasem]

Anyway, in short, going forward, I need a good thermometer, preferably something digital. Anyone got recommendations? As cheap as possible would be nice...

I have an old school lab thermometer, the glass type as a backup, no batteries and darn accurate. Its rated to -2C to 360C. It's a cheap low tech solution for a low tech problem, you can leave it in the boil too if you want.

[Harhm Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Harhm]

Thanks but no thanks I have enough of my own brewing issues that I need to sort out. Then again if you give me a mash temp target Ill gladly brew the same beer to see where I end up with it.

All things said you are doing ground breaking work by brewing around 2% abv, its a difficult range to brew at You did great going over to all grain and I'm very sure your beer will be 100%, well sure enough that my offer still stands that I will gladly look after 6 of them for a few months.