Rooibos Cider

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Yeah I knew they had some preservatives in them, which I was OK with, but I checked the Apple concentrate. The preservatives in there are k-meta (which goes out by itself) and k-sorbate. K-sorbate I can overpower with just adding a ton of yeast (like a large starter), but it's the sodium benzoate in the cranberry juice I'm worried about. I have no idea what it does to yeast, although a long Googling session revealed it might do just the same as k-sorbate, meaning I should be able to win the preservatives if I just pitch a large enough colony of yeast...

I think I should do a test. Tiny batch with a full packet of yeast. See what it does.

[groenspookasem Banned Find all posts View Profile Close groenspookasem]

Propagate rather, save some money along the way. Nutrients.

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[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Propagate rather, save some money along the way. Nutrients.

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Yeah I think I might even have a packet of cider yeast in the fridge somewhere. Will see if I can build a nice big starter with it.

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Ey, the product tech guys got back to me with actual numbers:

Apple juice, ready to drink preservative levels:
Sodium Benzoate (ppm): 133 – 167
Sulphur Dioxide (SO2) (ppm): 83 – 117
Potassium Sorbate (ppm): 42 – 75


Cranberry juice, ready to drink preservative levels:
Sodium Benzoate (ppm): 137 - 163
Potassium Sorbate (ppm): 62 – 88


That's not a lot, to be honest. I expected more. The benzoate levels are the only ones that worry me a little bit. Sorbate is way too low to prevent fermentation at that ABV and that pH levels. Sulphur dioxide levels can easily be driven off with even a little bit of heat (mixing with hot tea).

Does anyone know what benzoate actually does to the yeast? I know k-meta kills the stray bug here and there and prevents oxidation, and sorbate prevents budding (multiplying), but I have no idea what benzoate does...

[groenspookasem Banned Find all posts View Profile Close groenspookasem]

Google is your friend, I had a quick look, mixed feedback something something benzene as a byproduct. Don't quote me, hasty search

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[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Yeah I've seen benzene as a byproduct as well, yeah, but I'm not 100% sure how accurate it is. It also seems like people mistake Benzene and Benzine, which is not the same thing.

Anyway, I found a study from 2014 from the Department of Food Science and Technology in India, called "Effect of addition or Sodium Benzoate on the fermentation behaviour, psycho-chemical and sensory qualities of plum wine". I think you should be able do download it here: http://ndpublisher.in/admin/issues/IJFFTV4N2i.pdf

It is one HELL of a cool read, with the following being some VERY unexpected results: "The results showed that in general, the addition of sodium benzoate decreased the fermentation, but a concentration of 100-200 mg/L and the control were statistically at par with each other."

And the final resulting line: "Thus, the addition of 100-200 ppm sodium benzoate to the plum must gave the product with best quality."

I did NOT expect that, to be honest. To boot, the do mention that plums (on which the study is based) is highly acidic, something which apple and cranberry is not. The high acidity also plays a role on the preservatives, since the combination of preservatives plays a role on the fermentability of the juice (or must, if you plan on fermenting it). The higher the acidity and the ABV, the less preservatives you need (which is why you don't need preservatives in whisky or other distilled stuff - ABV is high enough). By my logical deduction, I'm going to guess that since the pH of the apple/cranberry is even higher than plums, you'll need MORE preservatives to stabilise it, meaning it should ferment fine at the levels mentioned (it's below the levels mentioned in the study). The study does point out that the fermentation is SLOWER with the addition of benzoate, so I have to keep that in mind and build a bit of a starter. They also mention that the final gravity ends LOWER as the concentration of benzoate increases. Interesting...

Furthermore, from the same study: "According to Atkinson et al. (1959), SO2 provides a clean fermentation and 100 ppm of SO2 prevented oxidation and controlled undesirable microorganisms whereas in the absence of SO2, the growth of yeasts other than S. cerevisiae was possible resulting in variation in the composition of the fermented medium (Herraiz et al., 1990)."

The means the levels of SO2 won't make a different either. I'm loving this research!

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Alright, so this weekend I decided to go ahead and do a little test batch.

I started off with a little sachet of SafCider that was in the fridge, and decided if it's still OK I'll go ahead with the brew. So I rehydrated the yeast in a mason jar into some water with Fermaid O added (a good dose), let it stand for 20 minutes and then added about 2 tablespoons of dextrose to give the yeast something to chew on. Half an hour later the mason jar was fizzing around the seal as the pressure wanted to escape - so the yeast worked. It worked damn well for a sachet that has been expired for over 2 years (July 2017 date stamped on there). It's been stored well, so I figured "let's try it". It worked. Sunday morning I had a thick layer of yeast in the bottom of the jar, so I stuck the jar in the fridge to cold crash for a bit so I can draw off moisture and let only yeast remain.

I then brewed 6 teabags' worth of strong Rooibos tea - brewed it twice to get everything out. I then poured this strong tea into a 5l water bottle (I know, I know, but this is a test batch only), added 400ml of the cranberry concentrate (enough to make 3.2l) and topped up to about 4l of water (thereby over-diluting the concentrate, hopefully enough to allow fermentation). I took a gravity reading and it stood on 1.032. It was a bit low for my tastes, and I didn't want to boost the sugar using the concentrate (because of the preservatives), so I added dextrose until I got to 1.046. I then took my starter, drew off the clearer top water to avoid introducing too much into the cider to dissolve it, and pitched.

I stuck this bottle with an airlock drilled into the cap into the fermentation chamber and set the temperature to 19°C. I went to check on it this morning and there's definitely some sort of activity. There was pressure in the bottle and while the airlock wasn't bubbling actively, it is pressurized (moved up the out side). There was also something that looked like a bit of a yeast cake that was floating on top of the solution, in the shape of the bottle's bottom, for some reason. So SOMETHING is happening. I don't know what, but something. I just hope it's fermenting.

I'll check for activity this afternoon, and if there is any, I'll feed a tiny dose of Fermaid O to help the yeasties along. I REALLY want this to work! The smell from the airlock this morning was pretty good, so I'm hoping this turns out OK.

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Aaaand I checked in on the fermenting mush. It's going. It's fermenting VERY slowly, but it's definitely fermenting. If I have to compare, I'd have to say it's going at about 1/3rd the rate of a normal fermentation. Slower than mead, even. The airlock isn't moving, but I found out that's because there's a leak in my grommet. Yay. It's fine though, if I shake up the bottle a bit, enough CO2 is released to make the airlock MOVE, so there's definitely fermentation.

Onto the cider itself. I did a tiny little taste test (like teaspoon), because I only have a tiny little batch. My colour is off, that much was obvious first and foremost. The Rooibos is giving a more rusty red colour than bright red. The colour is also darker than I expected, but that may still clear up a bit, so there's hope. The aroma is pretty Rooibos-y, which is good. There is also a definite cranberry nose, which is great. It still smells pretty sweet, and I guess because of the preservatives and the yeast taking so long to do it's job, it's actually one of the cleanest smelling fermentations I've ever smelled. There's no yeast smell on the nose - AT ALL. Also, and this is a big one, no sulphur!

Now here is where it gets interesting. The taste. It's still sweet, obviously carbonated, but it's also the cleanest ferment I have tasted to date. There are no yeast flavours I could pick up in the small taster I had. And I mean, none. All I got was, first and foremost, a hit of Rooibos. Because of the remaining sugar you almost miss the cranberry, but it hits you as a very crisp, tart flavour right after the Rooibos. The sweetness and the cranberry flavour only comes in after this. Again, no yeast flavour that I could pick up. To be honest, if the sweetness was a little lower I would have poured a glass and been happy with it as it is right there, no aging needed. This kind of corresponds to that study on the plum wines that I read - the ferment is clean, with a strong accent on the flavours. It's very slow, yes, and I'm pretty sure it might end up not finishing completely bone dry, but that's also just fine. It's very, very good, and I love how it's progressing so far. I can only hope that it continues on this path, and I'll keep my eye on it to make sure it does!

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Figured I'll post some pics. How I'm fermenting this one. It's been moved to the fermentation chamber, obviously, this was just the first few minutes, had to find a place to set it down:


And the gravity of this cider, 1.046, giving me a potential ABV of 6.5% if it ferments to bone dry. Oops. Yes, I overshot it, completely, but that's fine. Maybe it'll stop short because of the preservatives like in the test I read up about:


And the colour. It's rusty red, not bright red like I dreamed up, but looking at the colour of Rooibos I'm never going to get that bright red as long as Rooibos is involved. It's just not how it looks, period, so I'm happy with this:

[Langchop Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Langchop]

Looks good. I can almost imagine the smells.

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Alright, so this morning I checked in on the mead in the ferm fridge, and remembers I stashed this in the bottom part of the fridge as well. Checked. The foam on the surface has dropped, and when I shook the bottle a little some CO2 still came off. From the drops that "boiled" out of the airlock grommet I did a tiny taste. Seems dry, with quite a bit of tartness from the cranberries. Rooibos flavour is punchy and good. I think this might end up being a very, very good cider. Will give it a few more weeks in the fermenting bottle and then I'll bottle from there. Should get around 10 little bottles to play with.

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

OK so this weekend I took the fermenting bottle from the chamber, poured the cider off the yeast cake and into a sanitized new container. I wasn't very careful with oxidisation because I don't think this batch will last long. I didn't take a FG but I did take a taste test - super tart, super dry. So, working with my OG down to dry, I have around 6% ABV. I batch primed in the bottle and added a bunch of sucralose sweetener tablets dissolved in some water to break the dryness. Flavour was pretty good, so I let the bottle sit for a few hours to dissolve the carbonation sugar well and got a pretty pressurised container when I got back. Anyway, I bottled as is, and now it's just sitting and waiting.


The flavour is very clean. No sulphur as I expected. VERY tart, pretty sour and the Rooibos is pretty up front and "in your face". The backsweetening I was happy with back then, but I suspect it's not as high as I would have liked it down the line, so I'll adjust in the larger batch. Colour is way off from where I wanted it, but that's OK. I'm not too worried about that. Anyway, here are some pics to show how it came out. Excuse the labels on the bottle, it's the only clear bottle I could find on short notice

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Alright, so I tried one this weekend. It's...odd. Ignoring the fact that the carbonation wasn't "up there", the cold one wasn't as tart or sour as I expected. However, I do think that the flavour tastes a little washed out. It's not terrible, but I'm not too happy with it. I do think it's because I didn't use enough cranberry, and the dryness of the Rooibos is funny on your tongue. To me it seems to force the dryness on the first taste, then it kind of fades back and the rest of the flavours come through, mellowing it out a bit, ending up better than it started. I think I might have added too much sugar to the mix to up the ABV, and that, combined with the stronger Rooibos and not enough cranberry is just not working like it should.

I'll probably try it again, but this time I'll do it completely different, so let's see next time. Definitely won't be doing it big batch, at least not until these have aged out a bit. Maybe it increases the fruitiness a bit. We'll see.

[Langchop Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Langchop]

Not sure if its the right thread for the Rooibos Cider taster, but here goes (a cheat early taster):

I think youre a bit overcritical. It does start off as 'odd' but I think mainly due to being something completely way out and not knowing what to expect. Then you kind of 'ease into it' and it grows on you.

Low carbonation on pouring but enough to give it that cider zing.

Aroma starts off slightly baked apple tarty followed by faint rooibos. Initial flavours are slightly sweet candy apple, followed by a slight "teabag astringency" [Like sucking on a rooibos teabag]. Then the rooibos flavour comes through more strongly, but not overwhelmingly, followed by fruitiness. Probably cranberry but I couldnt define it clearly. Dryish finish. Not enough to be mouth puckering, but just enough be clean and refreshing.

Overall the rooibos is unusual in the mix but it really does grow on you and a really nice balance of sweetness and dry finish.

From my limited experience with ciders, they do seem to age well, so I am looking forward to the other one in a few weeks/ months.

[Toxxyc Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toxxyc]

Interesting you picking up apple. There's maybe 1% apple in there from that concentrate I used. The rest is just cranberry. Glad you found it tolerable. I'm not a fan