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Rooibos Cider

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  • #16
    OK so BrewForAfrica can't give me just the concentrate right now, but I can apparently order from the supplier, but they sell in 25l minimum quantities. I asked for a price for 25l. If it's not too expensive, who would be willing to split a bucket of concentrate with me? Langchop, do you remember what ratio you had to dilute it to (in other words, how much concentrate did you use for a 20l batch)? If it's like 1:4 is means 25l can make 100l, but that bottle looks a lot smaller to me - maybe 2 or 3l. That means a ratio of 1:7 or 1:9, meaning you can do a lot more with the 25l concentrate and it gets a lot more economical to use it like that.

    EDIT: Scratch that, it's a 200l drum, at 68~72 Brix, not 25l. Out of the question, then.
    Toxxyc
    Senior Member
    Last edited by Toxxyc; 6 August 2019, 12:45.

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    • #17
      a few of these to add toy your cider should be sufficient to flavor it, your choice be pre or post fermentation, yeasts will destroy your fructose and leave you with a bit of flavor
      https://www.woolworths.co.za/prod/Fo...-6009195512231

      OR

      make some pomegranate tea as a water sub in the boil
      https://www.peacockteaandcoffee.co.z...y-pomegranate/
      https://www.theteamerchant.co.za/pro...8328488b&_ss=r


      OR

      use dried pomegranate in your boil
      https://www.faithful-to-nature.co.za...d-pomegranates

      Perhaps you were dreaming of a refreshing low abv kombucha instead
      https://brewkombucha.co.za/

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      • #18
        Yeah it's more and more looking like I'll do this with something like LiquiFruit with a drop of sugar added. I got another price on concentrates - nobody wants to give you manageable amounts. Last price I got was apple concentrate at R32,75 per kg, which is very cheap considering you dilute it 1:7 or something like that, but then I have to buy 10 x 25kg jerrycans in one go. It's just not feasible.

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        • #19
          I made cider twice and won't make it again. My next "not beer" I'll attempt is a graf/ginger ale affair for summer, but before that it's potstill single malt whiskey making time, followed up with a gin through the t500. I digress, your best bet is a fruit press or run a "few" apples through the kenwood to properly upset the missus, i'd personally add malt to the cider for some body (graff) add your rooibos late in the boil, 3 minute addition or something along those lines.

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          • #20
            Not going to be super cheap whichever way you run. 10x2L liquifruits will come to about R350 iirc, or you could just get that full cider kit at R360.

            I personally think the kit world give you a good blank canvass for you to add all your other flavours to.

            Not really relevant anymore but I think the concentrate was 2 or maybe 3 litres for 20l batch, but it also used a 'brew enhancer'. The Apple aroma I think was key, due to must fermenting out so dry.

            The base article I found regarding the rooibos cider patent was Lucy Cornes blog if you are interested in the read. Lots of spin off links from there:

            http://brewmistress.co.za/can-put-rooibos-beer/
            Cheers,
            Lang
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            "Dudddde...Hold my beer!".... ; "I wonder what will happen if I ...."

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            • #21
              Originally posted by groenspookasem View Post
              I made cider twice and won't make it again. My next "not beer" I'll attempt is a graf/ginger ale affair for summer, but before that it's potstill single malt whiskey making time, followed up with a gin through the t500. I digress, your best bet is a fruit press or run a "few" apples through the kenwood to properly upset the missus, i'd personally add malt to the cider for some body (graff) add your rooibos late in the boil, 3 minute addition or something along those lines.
              I've made a cider before, from a kit. Mangrove Jack's Mango & Raspberry cider. After this dream of mine I dug up the last bottle of this I saved since last year, stuck it in the fridge and tried it. Mate, it's the best shit ever. I made it off-dry, and it's honestly some of the nicest drinks I've had in a while. I gave my wife a sip and her reaction was "Did you make this? Really? It's awesome!" So yeah, I really want to try my hand at it again, and specially now with the Rooibos addition.

              Originally posted by Langchop View Post
              Not going to be super cheap whichever way you run. 10x2L liquifruits will come to about R350 iirc, or you could just get that full cider kit at R360.

              I personally think the kit world give you a good blank canvass for you to add all your other flavours to.

              Not really relevant anymore but I think the concentrate was 2 or maybe 3 litres for 20l batch, but it also used a 'brew enhancer'. The Apple aroma I think was key, due to must fermenting out so dry.

              The base article I found regarding the rooibos cider patent was Lucy Cornes blog if you are interested in the read. Lots of spin off links from there:

              http://brewmistress.co.za/can-put-rooibos-beer/
              Yeah I'm wondering if I shouldn't just bite the bullet and get that kit sometime. Here's to hoping they don't sell out too fast. Got too much to brew in the near future to try my hand at an relatively expensive cider for now. I also want to try a vienna lager again before I do the ciders, want to stock up on summer beers a bit. I have a yeast harvest I want to try as well, so let's do that first...

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              • #22
                Hmm. Got a price list from a juice shop in Kempton Park. Good prices on Magalies concentrates, not nectars, with no additives other than fruit juice:

                Apple concentrate 1l - R60 (makes 6l)
                Apple concentrate 5l - R312.60 (makes 30l)
                Cranberry concentrate 5l - R354.40 (makes 40l)
                Mango concentrate 5l - R294.00 (makes 30l)

                Would really not mind going half-half on apple/cranberry with someone, actually. Even mango/cranberry would make a great cider, methinks. Damn, these prices aren't bad at all, but I'll need to go collect in Kempton Park.

                Their other stuff is also cheap, flip. 2l soft drinks - R7,30. 2l Ice cream - R33. 5l Ice cream - R66. 5l Full Cream ice cream - R90. I need to either go there or get someone to go there for me haha!

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                • #23
                  Alright, so two topics of discussion.

                  1. The Rooibos Result.
                  2. The Concentrate Concentration.

                  The Concentrate Concentration

                  I got the prices as above directly from Magalies as well. These are 100% concentrates, in other words, nothing more than dehydrated juices. The juices have been clarified, but that's fine for me. They also have small amounts of preservatives in the mix to prevent fermentation in the bottle, as well as what they call "apple essense" or something like that. It's a flavouring and it corresponds with the Mangrove Jacks kits I've used before. It helps to boots the fruit flavour in the finished produce. Anyway, they have the following I'm interested in:

                  Apple Concentrate 1l - R60 (makes 6l)
                  Apple Concentrate 5l - R290 (makes 30l)
                  Cranberry Concentrate 5l - R340 (makes 40l)

                  They don't have cranberry in 1l, so I'm considering buying a 1l apple and a 5l cranberry. I'll then make the "bulk" of my cider cranberry, with a hint of apple and the to dilute I'll use Rooibos tea brewed beforehand. More on this to follow.

                  Why I'm posting this - this is damn cheap for these juices. If anyone wants to split an order to save a bit on shipping, let me know. It's around R100 shipping to my office in Fourways, and I can take it to PTA as well if you wish. It's not a lot for shipping, but every cent saved helps. I'll be ordering around Wednesday, so if anyone wants to split prices, let me know.

                  They also have, in 1l:
                  Fruit and Vitamins (makes 5l)
                  Orange and Cells (makes 6l)

                  And in 5l:
                  Mango (makes 30l)
                  Fruit and Vitamins (makes 25l)
                  Orange and Cells (makes 30l)
                  Tropical Punch (makes 30l)
                  Guava (makes 25l)

                  Prices range from R250 to R340 per 5l, with the most being R290. Let me know!

                  The Rooibos Result

                  So I ran the Rooibos test. I cold-brewed two tea bags in a glass bottle. I used RO water, at room temperature. I added two teabags to an empty Snapple bottle (473ml) and added two Rooibos tea bags. I placed it in the fridge and shook it up every time I opened the fridge to get it to "brew" nice and strong. After 4 days I opened the bottle, poured the tea into a sterilized glass jar, sealed it and placed it back in the fridge.

                  I repeated this in the same bottle, again with two tea bags, but this time used boiling water. I also shook the bottle, burnt my hands and then shook it again, this time holding it with a tea towel. I then set the bottle down to cool to room temp, shaking every now and again, and then sat it in the fridge to chill. Once chilled I poured it off into a sterilized glass jar, sealed it and placed it back in the fridge.

                  Both jars sat for a bit until I got the time to do a test (and my palate was relatively "clean"). So I took them out, and placed them side by side. At first I wanted to do a blind taste test, but that would have been futile. The difference between the two teas is drastic:





                  It's not really hard to guess which one is the hot brew. I figured at first that maybe it's just the drastic colour difference, but then I opened them both.

                  Gave them a sniff. The cold brew Rooibos smelled like Rooibos, yes, but the scent was very dulled. Watered down. The hot brew smelled like it should - strong, flavoursome Rooibos.

                  On the taste - the cold brew tasted like Rooibos, but lacked SO much of the flavour it's not even funny. You can taste it's the Rooibos tea, but it lacks all the natural sweetness of Rooibos, which I thought would actually be pronounced. The solution (don't want to call it a tea, really) was watery and had no mouthfeel, with a funny after taste I simply can't place. I want to call it metallic, but it's not metallic. I have no idea where it comes from or what it is, but it's not the best. The hot brew, on the other hand, was rich and flavourful, as expected. I expected it to be a bit more bitter or maybe even a tad astringent, but it was barely detectable. Chilled like this, there is a slightly dry finish on the tip of the tongue which was expected. That'll outright disappear with a semi-sweet solution mixed into it. To boot, the colour is beautiful.

                  I then took both jars, added a bit of honey to both and heated them up. The same as above translated into the heated teas as I drank them. Cold brew is flavourless, and you just taste honey. The other one was a brilliant tea, like I like my Rooibos in winter months.

                  There's just no question which method I'll use when making my cider. Hot brew it is, through and through. If not for the colour, for the flavour. Cold brew just won't make the mark it should.

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                  • #24
                    Alright, I needed juices anyway for an upcoming event, so I ordered some concentrates. Going to kick this off after a while. Let's see how it plays out.

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                    • #25
                      Somehow I missed your feedback from 2 days ago. Thanks for that, very interesting.

                      Just to be on the same page: The hot one was the darker one on the left, right? [or shall i say 'on the left, correct'?]

                      Do you reckon if you had watered down the darker/ hot one to the same colour tone as the lighter/cold one, that the flavours would have still have been more pronounced?

                      I am just wondering if its a hot versus cold difference or if its actually a 'well infused' versus a 'moderately infused' 'concentration' difference?


                      Unfortunately I dont have empty vessels to do a cider at the moment, so cant come to the party with splitting a juice order.
                      Cheers,
                      Lang
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      "Dudddde...Hold my beer!".... ; "I wonder what will happen if I ...."

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                      • #26
                        The darker one is the hot brew, yes. What struck me with the hot brew vs the cold brew was that I never really took a look at Rooibos' colour. You just make it in a mug, add honey, a dash of milk and off you go. Since I made the cold brew first, I could see how long it actually took for the water to extract anything from the tea bags. After 2 or 3 minutes the water was turning a light rusty colour, but nothing like in the picture. Some time later I shook it and a bit more colour came out. After around 12 hours or so it stopped giving off more colour, and I figured that it might be it. Placed it in the fridge for a few days just to be sure, but that's where it stood.

                        Hot brew though... I added the boiling water to the jar, dumped in the tea bags and immediately I could see the bags "bleed" the colour into the water. I closed up the jar, shook it quickly and opened it again to release pressure. The second I shook it, the colour was already darker than the cold brew's. Immediately. For the sake of accuracy and to avoid bias I didn't taste it there and then, but I did know the blind test would be out the window.

                        So yeah, maybe you can water down the hot brew to the level of the cold brew and the taste might be the same, I'm not sure, but to me the cold brew's taste was tinny, watered down and "not there". It's not the taste I was aiming for (nor the taste I dreamed up), so it's not the taste I'm going to go for.

                        Anyway, my plan is to make a few litres of hot brew tea and to dilute some cranberry and apple concentrate with it. A tiny bit at first, because shit's 'spensive, and then do a taste test. If it's good, I'll take a gravity reading to see where I come in at, and if needed I'll adjust with dextrose to the desired ABV (I'm aiming for 5%). This will all happen only in like 2 or 3 weeks' time anyway, since the fermenter is due for a bottling session first and I don't want to impart Rooibos flavour on my mead batch just yet, so let's see.

                        On the same note of teas and all that, I think I'm going to need pH strips. Both for the mead, and also because Rooibos tea is a slightly acidic mixture. If the acidity of the cranberry juice is too high, I might get a bad or even stalled fermentation, which I definitely don't want. I also want to see what's in the teas and juices, as I don't want to starve my yeast. I think that's a big problem with fermenting with clarified juices, resulting in sulphur smells and other off-flavours - the yeast isn't fed what it needs. Rehydrating the yeast well and adding a dose of Fermaid O to a big batch should solve that pretty easily. Just need to see if I can find the YAN levels of teas so I can do the calculations.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Toxxyc View Post
                          Alright, I needed juices anyway for an upcoming event, so I ordered some concentrates. Going to kick this off after a while. Let's see how it plays out.
                          Already shipped. Wow.

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                          • #28
                            And juices arrived. Got 1l Apple Concentrate and 5l Cranberry Concentrate. Getting a bit excited about this now.

                            Just one question - how does one get rid of Potassium Sorbate or Sodium Benzoate? I don't care about the Potassium Metabisulfite in there, that'll disappear on it's own, but the sorbate or benzoate I have no idea about. They say after dilution you should keep it in the fridge to "prevent spoilage", so I'm hoping they add just enough preservatives to prevent fermentation of the concentrate. Thus, if I dilute it, specially when adding the apple that contains no benzoate, I should be able to get it to ferment just fine...

                            Right?

                            PS: If I need to make a yeast starter that'll be just fine as well. I'm OK with that.

                            EDIT: Maybe this is not a bad time to try a Kveik yeast...?
                            Toxxyc
                            Senior Member
                            Last edited by Toxxyc; 15 August 2019, 11:04.

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                            • #29
                              I always thought preservatives were a no-no for 'must'. I actually thought you had sourced unpreserved juices?

                              But like you say, there must be some lower threshold level where they have negligible effect on the yeast. Hopefully someone else here has tried and has some real world experience with that...
                              Cheers,
                              Lang
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              "Dudddde...Hold my beer!".... ; "I wonder what will happen if I ...."

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                              • #30
                                Poor kveik... Preservatives are usually used to prevent natural fermentation or infections. You might be able to ferment, but keep some enzymes on hand to strip everything including flavor out.

                                Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

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